Interview with Dr. Robert Labaree, New England Conservatory

Q: Who actually arranged the music?

A: If you look at those notations you got, that’s one place you start. Some of those notations resolved from me or Mehmet transcribing them from a recording. So in other words, you hear something you like and write it down according to the conventions you’ve learned about Turkish music. Or some of those pieces you looked at were actually from 17^th century manuscripts.

Q: How did the manuscripts get matched up with the music?

A: The manuscripts might say something in Turkish that classified it by its maqam. What’s interesting, however, is that a lot of the pieces when you read them and you play them, you say ‘That doesn’t sound like that maqam’ because they’ve evolved over the years.

So the arranging process in many ways means you’ve got to make decisions like that: this could go one place or another in the program, you choose it because of the text…You know the text is really important in this particular concert because it’s all about this idea of protest. That’s a lot of the reason we chose some of these pieces, but then once you’re there you have to think ‘how does it go together with the other pieces?’ because maqams are melodic families. Everybody in the huseni family kind of resembles each other but each one is utterly different. So if you have two maqams that are different and you have melodies in two different maqams that you’re going to put together, you have to develop ways for them to go together that’s not jarring, that’s aesthetically pleasing, that makes sense, etc. So that’s always an issue.

Q: Did you get to rehearse together much?

A: Well, what’s really interesting is when you have people that know the general repertoire, who know the style, who know the language. [Turkish music] places music in the hands of the performers. So it’s what you make of that music. You may be playing a 17^th century piece, but it’s in your control to do. It’s a very different approach to composition. They are pieces, they have composers, you preserve them, but my role is central. And I feel in control. That gives me the freedom to work with these pieces. So the rehearsals end up being quite exploratory.

Now, to make it more efficient, Mehmet and I got together a couple times to work our way through it, to work out some of the problems. ‘Oh she’s going to play this instrument; I know she tunes it like this. That means we’re going to play it at this level. This is a great place for Burcu to do an improvisation.’ We create a sort of outline, so we don’t have to spend too much time in rehearsals talking. But if you watch the rehearsal, I think you’d see it’s not like rehearsing with a string quartet.

Q: How much of the final performance ends up being improvised?

A: Well in one sense, you can answer that in a simple way or in a complicated way. The simple way is there are those moments when there is taksim. The usual word we use to translate that is improvisation, but I think that is not a very good translation, particularly because if you place that against the way people treat things that are not taksim, they’ll say ‘what’s the difference?’

Here’s a classic instruction from a teacher: ‘You want to learn to do a taksim in this maqam? Learn ten pieces in that maqam. You want to learn to place those pieces? Learn how to do a taksim.’  So it’s very circular, but it’s emphasizing the fact that these are totally related. Now you would never have that instruction issued to you if you’re playing Mozart or Chopin or Brahms. That’s not what pianists or violinists are told today. So in other words, if you were to record what I’m playing when I look at that notation from the 17^th century and you sat down and meticulously wrote down everything I’m playing, you’d ask ‘What’s going on here?’

What’s really interesting is you took five of us playing together on the same piece that is played from that same notation and if you transcribed each one of us playing simultaneously, you’d say ‘Are they playing the same piece?’ That’s what it calls for; it calls for this kind of creating a rich texture where people are in a sense engaged in a conversation with each other as they play this kind of script. The nature of this music obliges you to work with each other in a very different way. The whole thing is not regulated by score.

Q: Are the vocals notated?

A: Yes, but there are certain forms where singers would expand on what they’re doing. For example the opening piece, the singer had learned that piece by studying the recording, but she has studied every nuance and carefully created her own. I’ve heard her sing that a number of time now and it keeps evolving.

There are moments where, Memet or Borjo were singing and they’re taking the text and creating the music for it. This is called Gazel. This refers to using maqam to render a text. Classically, the best gazel singer have been Koran chanters. They are the best because these men are singing the word of God and they have to make sure everything they sing preserves the discipline. These men sang secular music, using the same skill and became the pop musicians of the 20^th century, they’re the McJagger.

Seeing the two singers perform at the same time, as we saw in the performance, is quite unusual in Turkish music. The feel becomes conversational between the two vocalists, this is called a chift gazel, a double gazel. Fortunately, we’ve had singers that can do that and it’s quite stunning.

Q: It seemed that there times when performed were featured, something resembling of solos, is that traditional to Turkish music?

A: From a musicians’ point of view and the audiences’ point of view, it’s great to do this. It’s important for the musician’s to have those moments to sort of try something, because they have put so much time and effort into this craft, they want to be able to express themselves.

Q: How did you get started?

A: I began starting Indian and Indonesian music in college at Wesleyan. I eventually met someone who brought this new music to me after returning from his Fulbright in Istanbul and I became very interested in it. I slowly pursued it, eventually, I spent many summers going to Turkey studying with people and learning the language.

I learned at one point that the best way to learn their music way by inviting these musicians to America and working with them in a concert setting, playing with them and learning from them.

Mesc- the word for a lesson. A one to one lesson, where a tutor teaches a student by singing or playing a line through imitation, not notation. This is a way of learning without notation. As the student continues to imitate the tutor, they change their performance every time. What the student is learning is how to get through what it should be, it’s never one thing and it’s always multiple things. You’re never totally in control, but you’re never tied down to what you’re doing either.

Q: Tell us about the çeng?

A: in the 80s or early 90s, I began working on this with a Turkish musician.

Prior, I had been working with a lot of medieval music and using a lot of harp, a small harp. I had eventually found out that it was useful with Turkish music, but I couldn’t find anything about the çeng in Turkish music after a certain point.

In about the 17^th century, the çeng was phased out. Ceng musicians were very popular at one point, but were taken out of Turkish music because of their inability to keep up with the music.

*Us aimlessly debunking an age-old theory as to why the çeng was no longer used in Turkish music…

We thing the çeng was phased out because you can’t alter the pitch without retuning it. We can have modulation within maqam in a piece because the instrument can be retuned.

When we built it, we built it with a sound board, bridge and gave it the ability to be retuned it as needed, so it could be used in a live performance setting.

Q: How do the divisions in Turkish music relate to the pitch divisions we’re familiar with (in Western theory) on the piano? So there are two pitch divisions on the piano and nine for Turkish music.

A: In other words you take a whole tone and divide it in half. That’s how we get C# and Cb. In Turkish music, we have nine parts. You may notice you can’t divide anything evenly into nine parts. This relates to Egyptian music, which divided a whole tone into 4 parts. At that time, Egypt was under the control of n the Ottoman Empire and seeking independence. The theory behind this was for each group to identify themselves as independent from one another.

Arabs and Turks, however, do not have this distinction. They may argue sometimes politically, however, they are playing each other’s repertoire almost all the time. Most of the composers that will be played will be Turkish in origin.

The compromise that was made over time, for the 9 divisions, was dividing a whole tone into 3 flats and 3 sharps, each of which is a 9^th of a tone, or a koman (1 flat = 1 koman). If you play one division after another you do hear a distinct difference, even though the increment seems so small in theory. Not one of these accidentals is the same as the ones you will hear on a piano.In essence, it’s about placing a note where it belongs.

A similar things happens with sustained instruments, such as bowed instruments or flute players. In Western music, you are taught to play that with a vibrato, which is a natural product of your voice. In Turkish music, you zero in on the pitch with no vibrato, and there is incredible control of the way to work a pitch. This is a way of working a pitch to place it right where it needs to be. Vibrato would obscure that.

Q: Where in Turkey have you been?

A: I’ve been all over. My main destination has been Istanbul because that’s where my professors all. I have been there on my own and with my family. We have gone to the Pontic Alps altogether. However, most of my experience comes from my time in Istanbul.

*Description of a historical depiction of Istanbul in Dr. Labaree’s office.

The country is so littered with the remains of so many civilizations. It’s one of the most inhabited areas of the world, historically. There are the remains of Persian and Greek civilizations (almost 2000 years worth of Greek civilization). Just in the last 10 years, Istanbul is building their own subway system. Previously, they couldn't because every time they would dig into the ground they would find more historical remains and then archaeologists would have to come over and study it, but now, they have decided that they are just going to go through with it. There is incredible acceleration in Istanbul in the development of their modern society.

The founding of Istanbul starts with the founding of Constantinople which was in the 4^th century. Although structures have come and gone, people living in Istanbul have this awareness of the history that they are around and living on. In a way it is a responsibility.

Q: The placement of the instruments (semi-circle). What is the reasoning for placing them in such a manner?

A: It was all about practicality. The two singers had to be in the middle because they are the focus, since the performance was very text-focused. My instrument, the çeng, tends to act like a wall and mess with the sound of the other, so it made sense for me to be at the right of the semi-circle.